I take it that you are in contact with John & Eileen Shanahan? - have they been able to help you at all with your research? We have just come back from Valentia and probably won't be going back until next year now but I would be happy to wander around the graveyard and have a look for gravestones for you. (I love doing that sort of thing - I am just starting to research my own family from Valentia) The grave yard is quite overgrown and older graves at the back are sometimes hard to get to. I will sort out a picture of my parent's house (Willie's) and send it to you.

I have spoken to my mother today and she remembers the Cryan's, (especially Girlie Cryan) and other members of the family. I am going over for dinner tonight so I will ask her some stories & info and get back to you

With kind regards

Ann Turner

FamSpack" < > From: "FamSpack" < > | Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 00:53:15 +0100 Subject: [CRYAN] Re Cryans in Williamstown Co Galway

Colin Crehan, as a new family historian, asked some questions that others may also like to see the replies to. "What are the LDS Vital Statistics CDs and the Irish BMD Registers and where can I obtain them?" The Church of Jesus Christ and the Latterday Saints (LDS) have microfilmed many parish registers and other documents, relevent to family history in many countries throughout the world. Many of their church buildings have attached to them a Family History Centre where anyone can view these films. If the films are not in stock then the supervisor will borrow it from a central library for a charge. The LDS have produced a sets of CDs for various parts of the world,each with a selection of extracts from Parish Registers and some of the national registers. There is a set for the N America, a set for the British Isles (ie England, Wales, Scotland and all Ireland) and one for Australasia. I am not sure about any others.You may be luck to find the places that you want but not everywhere has been covered. I am sorry not to be able to do any look-ups but my CD with all the names beginning with C has been broken(overuse, I suspect). The Irish National Birth ,Marriages and Deaths(BMD) INDEXES - not registers are also available on film at the LDS FHCs. The telephone number and address of the FHC will be in the Telephone Book. Usually one has to book in advance. However first visit their website http://www.familysearch.org and look in the catalogue to see what is relevant to you . Film numbers and fiche numbers are given so that you can go prepared. The site also gives info. on their CDs Eve - happy hunting

Fri, 01 Sep 2000 10:35:55 +0000 Subject: Re: Pat Hunt again From: Patrick Hunt <pathunt@indigo.ie> | To: Caoimhghin O Croidheain

Caoimhghin, Many thanks for your help to date. I now have the names of Thomas Cryan's children. I have an idea that the late Cryan brothers, Tom and Sean, who were remarkable journalists in their day, might have some connection with the Cryan family I want to know more about. Would you mind asking your Dad for the names of their widows, and roughly where they lived in Dublin. I spoke to one widow before; she was rather distressed because her husband died a short time previously. Now I can't remember her name and worse, I don't know which of the two widows she was. Thomas Cryan's children were: Amelia, Thomas, William and Robert. He was married to Mary Casey. If I send you a few paragraphs about this Cryan family, would you mind taking the trouble to put them on the Cryan net group. I don't know how to do it. Many thanks, Pat Hunt

Cay145@aol.com | Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 10:54:35 EDT Subject: Fwd: Cryan surname/help

Kevin, I am Dorothy Catherine Cryan Chegwidden. I have recently been given information about my great-great grandfather Michael Cryan and his wife Bridget Foley Cryan. They were from Ireland and came to the U.S. They had children Margaret J. , Nellie T., Mary A., and John P. all born in Ireland. I'm not sure if there were others born there, but they had others here in the U.S., including Nora, Michael, James, Bertha B. Annie and maybe Helen. Michael and Bridget both died in the U.S., but I would like to know if you have any information on births of their children or their own births or their parentage, etc. I would appreciate any help. I had assumed that they were from Sligo or Rosecommon from the many inquiries of Cryan families that I've seen, but I don't know. I do know that Bridget Foley Cryan had a sister Mary married name in U.s. Murray who moved to Dixon, Neb. That's all I know of the ones who early on came from Ireland. I'm just now connecting with the U.S. information. My father Richard G. Cryan was born in Lowell, MA, as were his many brothers to John J. Cryan, who had a brother Leo C., also born in Lowell. Their father was John P. , who was born in Ireland. That would be my great grandfather. Am I confusing you? I seem to be myself. Any help or knowledge of where to look for help would greatly be appreciated. My dad died when I was five in the state of Kansas, and I have no real knowledge of my family. Dottie Cryan Chegwidden, Corpus Christi, TX

SSulli1128@aol.com | Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 12:44:50 EDT Subject: Valentia Island Cemetery

I recently visited Valentia Island in July. I was in search of any relatives that may still be living there. I spent several hours at Kylemore Burial Grounds photographing headstones. I could not located William and Eliza Shannahan in my collection, however I do have pictures of other Shannahans and O'Sullivans and a Stephen Cryan. If you would like a CD of those photo's please send me your snail mail address. The CD is not a complete list of all the graves at the cemetery. The cemetery is badly over grown and difficult to walk through. I was being attacked by flies during my stay and was unfortunately unable to complete my project there. You are welcome to what I have, as I know how hard it is to do the research. Regards, Steve Sullivan

FamSpack" < > From: "FamSpack" < > | Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 13:00:15 +0100 Subject: [CRYAN] Michael CRYAN of Lowell MA

Hi List-readers

I have recently been reading the Ballaghadereen RC parish registers and

collecting more CRYANs. By chance, I received a notice from another

list

that someone was looking for Michael CRYAN and Bridget FOLEY who went

from

Ireland to Lowell MA.

Wake -up all you Lowall researchers, do you know who this Michael is ?

Is

he the one with the shop or is he one of the others? I remember some

census

data that someone posted. Please would someone kindly resurrect it for

all

to see.

Hopefully Dottie has re-subscribed by now - WELCOME

Until again, happy hunting Eve

...............................................

>From the RC parish registers of Ballaghadereen which is a

town on the borders of Counties Roscommon, Mayo and Sligo, I can offer

a

Marriage of Michael CRIEN/CRYANto Bridget FOLEY on 4 Sept 1864

witnesses John CRIEN/CRYAN and Mary HAYDEN

Mary ...bapt on 24 July 1865 parents Michael CRYAN and Margaret(I think

that

this is a mistake by the writer), should be Bridget FOLEY

witnesses John FOLEY and Mary FOLEY

Diff to readname but probably Hony(short for Honora, which has another

diminutive NORA)...bapt 14 Feb 1867 parents Michael CRYAN and Bridget

FOLEY

witnesses John CRYAN and Mary PLUNKETT

Anne....bapt 27 Nov 1868 parents Michael CRYAN and Bridget FOLEY

witnesses Pat PLUNKETT and Bridget PLUNKETT

All these are from the townland of Grophy, which I can not find on my

map.Perhaps it is too small or it has been absorbed in to a

neighbouring

townland,but as all the other townlands

Voltene@aol.com | Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 10:12:49 EDT Subject: [CRYAN] Michael and Bridget (Foley) Cryan

Hi Group, I have been putting together my own database of CRYANs, not only in Lowell, but In MA 1860-1905, Births, Marriages and Deaths. Unfortunately, I only have obituaries for Cryans in Lowell. I was able to forward to Dottie the following obits for Michael and Bridget (Foley) Cryan. If Jill is still on the list, check out one of the bearers at Mary Cryan's funeral. Lowell Sun, 8 June 1899 Obituary Michael Cryan, an old resident of Lowell, died last evening at his house, 23 Fayette street. He was an esteemed member of the Holy Name Society of the Church of the Immaculate Conception. He leaves a wife, three sons, James, John and Michael, and six daughters. ---- Lowell Courier Citizen, Monday 19 Dec. 1921 Obituary Mrs. Bridget Cryan, and old resident of the Immaculate Conception parish, but for the past few years a resident of the Sacred Heart parish, died Saturday at her home, 27 Bourne street, off Moore street. She leaves six daughters, Mrs. Patrick Murphy, Misses Bertha, Annie, Helen, Margaret, and Nora Cryan; two sons, John and James; one sister, Mrs. Mary Murray of Dixon, Neb.; three grandchildren, John and Leo Cryan and Mrs. Aloysia Halloran, and two great-grandchildren, Ilene and Nora Frances Halloran. Bearers at the funeral, James O'Flahaven, Michael McKeon, Charles Sadlier, Patrick Kenney, Hugh McNiff, James K --- Another son, Michael Cryan, died in 1911. On his 1902 Naturalization in Lowell Police Court, it lists his place of birth as Balladereen, Co. Sligo, Ireland and date of birth as July 5, 1881. According to the Naturarization, he came to America at the age of 11 months, arriving about June 9, 1882 to the port of New York. Hope this helps anyone researching this family. Thanks Eve for the dates of marriage and baptisms. Karen Murphy Nashua, NH

Cay145@aol.com | Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 19:57:01 EDT Subject: [CRYAN] Michael and Bridget (Foley) Cryan

Hello, To the people doing Cryan research in Lowell, MA and in Newark

, N.J.

I am trying to find the descendants as well as the ancestors to the

Michael

and Bridget Cryan. So far Eve and Karen have helped a great deal in

locating

these family members and some of the children. They are my great-great

grandparents. My great grandfather is John P. Cryan, born in Ireland.

His

son John J. Cryan is my grandfather. John Joseph married Catherine

Dubey in

Lowell....she was from Cambridge, I believe. They had John, Richard

(my dad,

born in 1925, died in 1950), Ralph, Robert, Catherine Doris, Raymond,

the

latter born in 1930. They moved to Newark, New Jersey sometime around

the

last child's birth. I believe my grandfather John J. died in Irvington

or is

buried there in 1964. Catherine, grandmother, died in 1931.

I've lost touch with the Aunt Doris, who used to write, and now do

not know

if any are alive or well, but I know they have families in the Newark

area.

So if any of you out there in Newark know this family, I would

appreciate

your information. I think Ralph died very young, maybe in the war. I

don't

know about the others. If you have access to obits in the Newark area,

I

would appreciate ones on any of these family members. I would

especially

like to see the ones for grandfather John Joseph in 1964 and Catherine

(Dubey) Cryan in 1931. These might help in identifying the others.

Thank

you again if you are researching in the area. Dottie in Corpus

Cay145@aol.com | Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 22:34:47 EDT Subject: Re: [CRYAN] Dolans of Roscommon and Leitrim & Cryan

Dear Caoimhghin@yahoo.com

I have recently discovered more about my family through this list and

other

Cryan sites...and wonderful people, such as Karen and Eve. My

great-great

grandfather Michael spelled his name Crien/Cryan when he married Briget

Foley

in Sept 4, 1864. I believe he had a brother John who spelled his name

Cryan

who attended the Michael and Bridget's daughters' baptismal services

of

Nora, Mary, and Anne in 1865-68. They were baptized in Ballaghadereen

and

seemingly from the town of Grophy in that area. Michael and Bridget

and ten

children settled in Lowell, Mass. But his great-great grandson, John

settled

in Newark, New Jersey. (and his family of many children)

But I don't find an Agnes Crine in the family. Do you think this must

be

another family of Crien's or Cryan's or Crine's??????? I think it might

be,

but I thought I'd see if you had any more info. that might

relate.......or

see if this would help you. Dottie

FamSpack" < > From: "FamSpack" < > | Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 17:13:23 +0100 Subject: [CRYAN] Ballaghadereen Registers

Hi Patrick,

Although I do not live in the USA, I have been able to visit the local

Family History Centre (FHC) of the Church of Jesus Christ and the

LatterDay

Saints(the LDS) - they are open to the public and I believe that there

is

one in Dublin. The phone book should give the address

They have a huge collection of films and fiches associated with

genealogy

from all over the world. These include films of parish registers. You

will

be pleased to know that you can access their catalogue, as well as a

great

amount of data, through the internet . If you click on this URL you

should

get through and then go through the links to the bit that you want.

http://www.familysearch.org

However the film number for Ballaghadereen is 1279232.

This film however may have to be ordered if they do not keep it in

stock, so

it is worth checking by phone first and they will tell you how much it

will

cost (here in England it is £4 for a loan of 3 months) and how to pay.

They

are very helpful. They will let you know when it is available to

use/read on

one of their film readers and you will most probably have to book as

the

film readers are well used.

On the film of The Ballaghadereen Registers there are different

sections

1 Baptisms Nov 1851 - 1860

2 Baptisms 1861 - 1870

3 Baptisms 1871 - 1875

4 Baptisms 1876 - 1884

5 Baptisms 1885 - 1895

6 Baptisms 1896 -

7 Marriages Aug 1830 - 1867

8 Marriages 1868 - 1873

9 Marriages 1874 -

also

10 Ballymote Marriages 1824 - 1865

11 Ballymote Marriages 1866 - 74

12 Ballymote Marriages 1874 -

13 Ballymote Baptisms 1856 - 76

14 Ballymote Baptisms 1877 -

15 Ballymote Baptisms and Marriages 7 Dec 1874 - 1909

16 Killasser Baptisms 18? possibly 1848

17 Killasser Marriages 1847 -

I have extracted all the CRYANs CRIENs CRENS etc up to 1870 but have

not

found an obvious candidate for your Thomas CRYAN except

******* 5 Jan 1853 Thomas CRIEN parent Patrick CRIEN (no mother

given)

witnesses James Gallagher and Mary Carty

Townlands are given after 1860, after which time there are CRYANs and

variants in the townland that you mention - many of them are spelled

phonetically

Thus there are Cryans in Fallens, Fauleens,Faleens, Sharriff,Grophy,

Cloghan,Clogher, Boherlee, Banada

More,Creggane,Keelbanada,Castlemore,Ballaglin and Icelawn.

**********As a "local" ,do you know where the townland of Grophy is. I

can

not find it on my OS map which gives a lot, but not all, of the

townlands

listed ?

There are CASEYs but I have only those married to CRYANs and I presume

the

marriage between Thomas and Mary took place after 1872 , so it should

appear

in the part that I have not collected, together with their children.

Good luck Eve

I am sending some of this to the CRYAN list as well as to you directly.

Thu, 09 Sep 1999 07:03:49 -0400 From: Margeret Dolan <mrdolan@hgo.net> | Reply-to: mrdolan@hgo.net

Dear Kevin, I can't say for sure, but it certainly is close to where the rest of them are.....are you going to try to come to the reunion next August? I hope so....keep in touch, and I'll get back to you with Dolan info......PeggyD Caoimhghin O Croidheain wrote: > Hi > My great great grandmother was a Margaret Dolan who > married Master John Cryan of Boyle and Croghan After > his death she went to live in Carrick-on-Shannon near > some other Dolans who were possibly relatives. > Does anyone have any info taht throw some light on > these Dolans or where they wer from in general? > Thanks > caoimhghin > (Kevin Cryan)

Cay145@aol.com Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 12:20:42 EDT Subject: hello from a Cryan To: caoimhghin@yahoo.com

Kevin,

This is Dottie Chegwidden (Cryan) from Corpus Christi, TX., originally

from Kansas. Eve and Karen from the Cryan mailing list have discovered that

my great-great grandfather, Michael Crien/Cryan married a Bridget Foley in

1864 in Ballaghadereen RC Parish. They were from Grophy, we think. Anyway,

Michael and Bridget had several children there.....and then moved to

Lowell,

Mass. I think Michael must have had a brother, John......not sure about

the others.......and Bridget had a sister Mary who married a Murray and

moved to Nebraska. Do you find any connections here?

My father Richard George Cryan died when I was five, so I've been

trying to trace down family for a long time. I know my grandfather John J. Cryan

was born in Lowell, Mass. and moved to Newark, N.J. with his family. His

father was John P. who was born in Ireland, I assume in the area mentioned

where Michael and Bridget were married. Confused? I am a little. Well, I

thought I'd check to see if there are connections here........take care.

Dottie

KBri490226@aol.com | Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 19:11:09 EDT Subject: 1911 news article To: caoimhghin@yahoo.com

Rec'd the newspaper article today. Boy, it sure made news didn't it.

I really enjoyed reading it. Thanks again for sending it to me. Do you

live in caherisiveen? kathleen

FamSpack" < > From: "FamSpack" < > Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 01:31:39 +0100 Subject: [CRYAN] Robert CRYAN To: CRYAN-L@rootsweb.com

Leslie,

You wll be pleased to know that I checked the Irish Register Indexes

forFrancis Fox 's marriage which is 1871 in Galway with index number

14.131....the same as Robert.

So yes it is the one

Eve

Wed, 06 Sep 2000 18:57:19 +0000 Subject: Re: Pat Hunt again and again From: Patrick Hunt <pathunt@indigo.ie>

Caoimhghin, I am so sorry. I thought that Des Cryan was your father: it was he who put me in touch with you in the first instance. It was an assumption I made, nothing he wrote. What I wanted to know is how or where I could contact the widows or family of the late Tom and Sean Cryan. I was in touch with one of the Cryan widows a couple of years ago; her husband was not long dead; I did not push the matter; now I can't remember which widow she was. I have already been in touch with some of the Cryan contributors on the list. They are wonderfully enthusiastic people. I wish people of my surname were as good. I will be in touch. Best wishes, Pat Hunt > From: Caoimhghin O Croidheain <caoimhghin@yahoo.com> > Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 05:56:27 -0700 (PDT) > To: Patrick Hunt <pathunt@indigo.ie> > Subject: Re: Pat Hunt again > > Hi > > > My uncle Des Cryan worked in the papers and I can ask > him but I am in Belgium till 16th of Sep. My father > died in 1990. > > Please do send any information about any Cryans and I > will post them on the list as there are lots of > researchers who can be very helpful on the list > as they have so much inforamtion collected now. > > regards > caoimhghin > > > > --- Patrick Hunt <pathunt@indigo.ie> wrote: > > Caoimhghin, >> >> Many thanks for your help to date. I now have >> the names of Thomas >> Cryan's children. >> >> I have an idea that the late Cryan brothers, Tom >> and Sean, who were >> remarkable journalists in their day, might have some >> connection with the >> Cryan family I want to know more about. Would you >> mind asking your Dad for >> the names of their widows, and roughly where they >> lived in Dublin. I spoke >> to one widow before; she was rather distressed >> because her husband died a >> short time previously. Now I can't remember her name >> and worse, I don't know >> which of the two widows she was. >> >> Thomas Cryan's children were: Amelia, Thomas, >> William and Robert. He was >> married to Mary Casey. >> >> If I send you a few paragraphs about this Cryan >> family, would you mind >> taking the trouble to put them on the Cryan net >> group. I don't know how to >> do it. >> >> Many thanks, >> >> Pat Hunt

FamSpack" < > From: "FamSpack" < To: "Caoimhghin O Croidheain" <caoimhghin@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: in general.... Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 15:41:51 +0100

Hi,

It sounds a good idea in theory but most of my information is on a card

index and sheets of paper - doing that part of the 1901 census for

Roscommonwas quite enough.

And ....the only conversations on the list would be of the type

...."whereis....?" " Look in...." type. One can at least interact and stimulate

others to interact.

Anyway, I believe that one should try to look at the information for

oneself, not believe the thousands of lists that should only be giving

apointer in the right direction. If one looks at even a film of the

parishregisters one learns a great deal about the time that it was written -

no-one seemed to believe me when I said that the same surname can be

spelledseveral different ways even within one family because the person/priest

whowrote it, heard and interpreted what the informant said in a different

way.One has to see to believe !!! (where have we heard that before?).

There is also the possibility that if one looks at the parish register

onecan trace other parts of the family.

I shall carry on as now, for the time being.

Regards Eve

How is the thesis getting on

KBri490226@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 12:02:24 EDT Subject: Re: 1911 news article

Hi, I relly don"t know if Timothy was a relative, as I have not been able to get past my grandparents for info on the family. I got the name of a Morley from the Valentia website and wrote to him on Valentia in Aug. ; but have not received a reply. I will keep looking , being retired gives me plenty of time. I was wondering how would you pronounce your first name or what would be the english eqivalent? I am planning on taking a Gaelic course at a local college in Jan. kathleen

noreen o' sullivan" <norosul@hotmail.com To: caoimhghin@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Valentia Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000

From: Caoimhghin O Croidheain <caoimhghin@yahoo.com> >To: "noreen o'" sullivan <norosul@hotmail.com> >Subject: Valentia >Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 14:09:30 -0700 (PDT) > >Hi Noreen >Could you tell me if there is a heritage centre on >Valentia ? >I know there is a Museum ...could you give me the >address again? I would like to find out if the old >graves have been surveyed as I would like to find the >graves of my great great grandparents William Shanahan >and Eliza O'Sullivan and their parents etc... > >Does the museum have a web site or address? > >Thanks again >caoimhghin (Kevin Cryan) >Dear Caoimhghin, Sorry for delay i replying,our computers were down with eircom bug. There is only a museum in Valentia not a heritage centre,perhaps they may be able to help you.they are at Knightstown,Valentia. Slan, Noreen. >

Cay145@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 22:39:32 EDT Subject: immigration site

www.nara.gov/geneaology/immigration/immigrat.html

sorry, if I forgot to paste ....Dottie

Bibliographies

Filby, P. William, ed. Passenger and Immigration Lists Bibliography,

1538-1900. 2d ed. Detroit, MI: Gale Research Co., 1988.

Lancour, Harold, comp. A Bibliography of Ship Passenger Lists,

1538-1825;

Being a Guide to Published Lists of Early Immigrants to North America.

3d ed.

New York: New York Public Library, 1978.

Wood, Virginia Steele. Immigrant Arrivals: A Guide to Published

Sources.

Revised. (Washington, DC: Library of Congress, Local History &

Genealogy

Reading Room, n.d.).

Compilations

Carl Boyer and Michael Tepper, each using a different format, have

undertaken to publish the names in Lancour's lists. Tepper's coverage of Lancour

is not comprehensive: an inventory of those articles omitted appears on pages

viii, ix and x of New World Immigrants.....

Boyer, Carl. Ship Passenger Lists, National and New England

(1600-1825).

Newhall, CA: C. Boyer, 1977. Covers Lancour entries 1-71.

Boyer, Carl. Ship Passenger Lists, New York and New Jersey (1600-1825).

Newhall, CA: C. Boyer, 1978. Covers Lancour entries 72-115.

Boyer, Carl. Ship Passenger Lists, Pennsylvania and Delaware

(1641-1825).

Newhall, CA: C. Boyer, 1980. Covers Lancour entries 116-197.

Boyer, Carl. Ship Passenger Lists, the South (1538-1825). Newhall, CA:

C.

Boyer, 1979. Covers Lancour entries 198E-243.

Tepper, Michael. New World Immigrants: a Consolidation of Ship

Passenger

Lists and Associated Data from Periodical Literature. Baltimore:

Genealogical

Publishing Co., 1979.

Tepper, Michael. Passengers to America: A Consolidation of Ship

Passenger

Lists From the New England Historical and Genealogical Register.

Baltimore:

Genealogical Publishing Co., 1977.

Tepper, Michael. Emigrants to Pennsylvania, 1641-1819: a Consolidation

of

Ship Passenger Lists from the Pennsylvania Magazine of History and

Biography.

Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co., 1978

Tepper, Michael. Immigrants to the Middle Colonies: a Consolidation of

Ship

Passenger Lists and Associated Data from The New York Genealogical and

Biographical Record. Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co., 1978

Ethnic Groups

There are numerous published name indexes to 16th through 19th century

arrivals of persons of various ethnic groups, including persons of

Czechoslovakian, Dutch, English, German, Irish, Italian, and Russian

descent.

For a listing of some of these indexes, see:

Wood, Virginia Steele. Immigrant Arrivals: A Guide to Published

Sources.

Revised. (Washington, DC: Library of Congress, Local History &

Genealogy

Reading Room, n.d.).

Two online guides to immigration by particular ethnic groups are:

Douglas, Lee V. Danish Immigration to America: An Annotated

Bibliography of

Resources at the Library of Congress. Research Guide No. 28.

(Washington, DC:

Library of Congress, Local History & Genealogy Reading Room, n.d.).

Douglas, Lee V. A Select Bibliography of Works: Norwegian-American

Immigration and Local History. Research Guide No. 6. (Washington, DC:

Library

of Congress, Local History & Genealogy Reading Room, n.d.).

Part 3: 1820-1959

Fri, 8 Sep 2000 04:33:53 PDT From: Karen McElrath <K.McElrath@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK> Reply-to: K.McElrath@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK Subject: [CRYAN] Re: irish townlands

received this info from the ancestry.com news. most of it focuses on

the north of

ireland, but some information might be useful (karen)

=============

"IRISH TOWNLANDS: BEYOND THE DEFINITION," by Sherry Irvine

============================================================

Townlands turn up in Irish research and nowhere else. It is an unusual

term--asI type this article, every use of the word has a red underline. The

spell checkthinks two words have been run together by mistake. Set out on the

trail of anIrish ancestor, however, and you will discover townlands.

It is easy enough to gather some basic facts about townlands. You will

quicklylearn that they are important for research because certain records were

collected or recorded with townland as the basic division. Townlands

are anancient land unit and once numbered more than 60,000. However, finding

them onmaps can sometimes be difficult.

All of this is essentially true, but it leaves out much of the

story--pointswhich were brought home to me during a visit to Northern Ireland in

April.Needing a change one afternoon, I abandoned my research and went to the

UlsterMuseum and there came across the 30 panels of a traveling exhibit,

"CelebratingUlster's Townlands." This explained a lot. The townland existed long

before the14th century, perhaps from as early as the 1100s. It was a meaningful

entity,and it was how a small, local community identified itself. Townlands

seemed toderive from what defined a family holding, and in some rural areas

until recenttimes, the townland name was the postal address.

Boundaries of townlands were expressed in terms of notable natural or

man-madefeatures of the landscape, such as hilltops, rivers and streams, walls,

orroads, and very often it was these features that became the names of

townlands.Landmarks, trees, plants, and animals all appear among the names;

Eglish(church), Fofanny (thistle place), and Rosnamuck (wood of the pigs) are

threeexamples ("Celebrating Ulster's Townlands," by Kate Muhr, Ulster

Place-NameSociety, 1999).

The townland is the smallest administrative division, and all other

divisionsare made up of townlands. Anywhere from five to 30 townlands comprise

one civilparish. In other words, size varies from the smallest, which is less

than twoacres, to the largest--more than 7,000 acres. This is an indication of

landquality: the better land was divided into smaller townlands.

At the time of the Plantation of Ireland, part of the policy of

resettlement wasto introduce the English system of land tenure. In their leases, the

proprietorsdescribed land according to townlands for the simple reason that there

was in1608 no proper survey of the confiscated areas. In addition, for the

severalgeneral land surveys later in the 17th century, the townland was the

basic landunit. Thus it became standard in land transactions, and estates were

mapped withreference to townlands.

The first effort to create a generally accepted list of townland names

came atthe time of the Down Survey, 1655-59. This was the work of Sir William

Petty,who took an interest in the ancient names and in retaining them, but

wh